204. The 4 Horsemen of Meaning | Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau

This episode was recorded on September 10th 2021. Jordan Peterson, Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau have a round table to explore ideas and theories of Meaning. All three guests have been on the podcast before, and all share Jordan’s passion for the universal truths of human experience. This deep discussion explores the roots of Meaning and religious significance. Bishop Barron is the founder of Word on Fire and the auxiliary bishop of the archdiocese of LA. John Vervaeke is a colleague of Jordan’s and an associate professor at the University of Toronto since 1994. He teaches courses on reasoning, cognitive development, and higher cognitive processes. Jonathan Pageau is a symbolic thinker, YouTuber, and class carver of orthodox icons. - Find more Bishop Barron on YouTube: https://youtube.com/user/wordonfirevideo And here: https://wordonfire.org/ Find more John Vervaeke online on his website: http://johnvervaeke.com John's YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCpqDUjTsof-kTNpnyWper_Q Find more Jonathan Pageau on YouTube: https://youtube.com/channel/UCtCTSf3UwRU14nYWr_xm-dQ  Jonathan's website: http://www.pageaucarvings.com _________ [00:00] Preview [01:30] Intro [02:40] Everyone gives their answer to “What is meaning?” [03:30] “We're using meaning as a metaphor... something similar to the way a sentence works. It has intelligibility to it that connects us to the world... so that we can interact and be informed by it” Jon Vervaeke [07:22] “Our mental framing is transparent like a pair of glasses, but there are times we need to step back and, by taking the glasses off and examining them, consider our framing structure" JV [09:10] “When you look at the world there is a central point of focus. When you focus on the point with your eyes it becomes very clear... until we no longer perceive anything by the edge of our vision. It's nothingness, it's just not there" Jordan Peterson [13:56] Bishop Barron's view on meaning and religion [14:23] “I would say that meaning is to be in a purposeful relationship to a value" Bishop Robert Barron [17:55] “So I'm talking to you, which I believe is a good, but it's nested in a higher good and a still higher good, so finally I want not just this particular good but good itself—that's a religious relationship" BRB [18:20] Pageau’s opening thoughts on meaning and religion [19:56] “The reason we perceive hierarchy is because we are always judging... or trying to evaluate whether something’s good" Pageau [20:31] Jordan’s brief foray into “mini-celebrations” [21:53] The idea of revelation [24:46] “It isn't obvious to me that we see objects—we see patterns" JP [27:40] “Like a Rolling Stone—it wasn't the first song I liked, but it was the first that rocked my world and rearranged my mind, and I think that's where real value is" BRB [28:42] Underlying causes of the crisis of meaning [30:10] “Something that starts with Scotus... and goes into the heart of the scientific revolution is that there’s no such thing as levels—reality just is" JV [31:00] Science around the hierarchy of intelligibility and connectedness [33:00] What is science? [39:00] “There’s an epistemic hierarchy and science does not belong on the top" BRB [42:00] “As scientists, we are motivated by a narrative we don't understand scientifically… The whole enterprise is driven by a dream whose reality can't be encapsulated within the process itself" JP [44:00] The ignorance in assuming science OR religion are correct [44:40] Eminationist ontologies [55:30] Religious experiences [01:07:30] The book of Revelations as a psychedelic experience. [01:17:30] The Psychedelic problem and why psychedelics are useful in communal experiences. [01:26:00] Jordan’s biblical lectures [01:32:00] What are the guests working on? [01:36:00] Beauty in churches [01:38:00] Growing up Christian [01:44:00] Possibility is real [01:50:00] Joining religion and science [02:03:30] Wrapping up #Meaning #Psychology #Religion