S06.24: All Dukes are Roofers: Renovation Romance with Nikki Payne

we're doing it.

It's happening.

I'm so excited.

First things first,

Fated Mates Live is happening

and Nikki Payne

is going to be one of our guests

at Fated Mates Live.

We're so excited.

And one of our guests today

on Fated Mates Wednesday.

I don't know what we're calling it.

Fated Mates today.

Fated Mates,

rig.

Yeah, exactly.

But we are so excited.

Nikki, you joined,

you were with us for the 23 for 23 episode last year

where we talked about books by BIPOC authors,

which is one of our,

I feel so excited about this.

Eric told me the other day

that it's one of our most popular episodes ever.

So that's exciting.

And we're excited that everybody's doing that.

And we hope everybody is doing 24 for 24.

24.

Exactly.

Or like 50 for 24.

However you want to do it.

Don't limit it.

Whatever your math is.

Don't limit it.

Don't limit it.

But anyway,

Nikki,

we're super excited because March 23rd,

which is coming up very soon.

Nikki is joining us in Brooklyn

at the William Vale Hotel

for Fated Mates Live.

And it's going to be a blast.

I cannot wait.

But for those of you who don't know,

this is Fated Mates.

I'm Sarah McLean.

I read romance novels and I write them.

I'm Jennifer Prokop,

a romance reader and editor.

And we are here,

with Nikki Payne.

Nikki Payne.

Nikki Payne.

Author.

Badass.

Author.

I write books about the books you were forced to read in the ninth grade.

Well, that's funny because I'm a middle school teacher

and I forced you to read the books you read in ninth grade.

No, I'm kidding.

I loved those books that I read in the ninth grade.

So it's a perfect trio.

Did I love Jane Austen in the ninth grade?

Did Sarah McLean love Jane Austen in the ninth grade?

Yes, Sarah McLean did.

The only thing I really remember reading in ninth grade,

well, we read Romeo and Juliet.

I vividly remember we had to do like a pop quiz.

Kate probably is going to defriend me after I say this.

And I remember getting like missing one point

because I misspelled Shakespeare.

Like I left off the E at the end.

What the fuck?

And then also we read A Separate Peace.

Remember that book?

Oh, I don't think I've ever read that book.

Okay.

Sounds a little hot though.

No, not at all.

I don't think so.

I think it was by a guy.

It's ninth grade.

It's ninth grade.

The guy's name is John Knowles.

I think it's at an aborting school.

I'm sure if I read it now, I would be like,

it's all about repressed homosexuality.

But I think at the time I did not know that.

And maybe someone jumps off a tree.

That's all I remember.

To be fair, I don't think I was assigned Austen

in the ninth grade by school because of boys.

And as you all know, Jane Austen is only for girls.

She is limited.

Yes, of course.

Women only.

Yeah, like the boys like open the book

and they're like, there are no words in here.

I don't.

If you look at the earliest covers,

there's like a spray painted like boys

and like the Z is like, it's like no boys.

Early, early copies.

But Steinbeck was definitely.

Oh, yeah, sure.

In the ninth grade.

So, you know, listen, I will tell you,

not in a long time, but I have taught the Pearl

and I will say it is perfectly plotted.

Like it.

It's just like a textbook of a book.

If you want to teach plot structure.

I'm not saying you should because it's a drag

and kids think it's boring.

But you could also like teach a great romance novel.

That would work, too.

Sure.

I am currently teaching my favorite book of all time,

House of the Scorpion, and I'm not going to talk about it

because it's just pure and perfect.

And if anybody wants to read it, I just like, no,

it's really a great book.

Anyway.

Oh, anyway.

Why don't we get to Nikki?

You write.

You have written two Austen retellings.

Your first book, Pride and Protest.

And now, Nikki, was that your first book?

It was.

It was.

It was your debut.

Pride and Protest.

And now you've written Sex, Lies and Sensibility.

So we're going to talk about both Jane Austen

and James Spader.

Because I would like to know.

As it should be.

I don't know if that's also in your background.

Okay.

Seriously, you guys, there's this one book.

It's called Pride and Protest.

It's a movie.

And it's called The Secretary.

Oh, yeah.

And it changed the chemistry of my brain.

But yeah, James Spader holds a really weird spot in my heart.

And I don't want to talk about it.

It gets dark.

But it does feel like anybody who uses the title

Sex, Lies and Anything is obviously.

Channeling.

Channeling the great James Spader.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

But so let's talk about Austen first.

Because I think Jen is sort of on the record

for.

For not being a huge Austen fan.

In fact, I don't think you've ever read any of them.

Right, Jen?

It's fine.

I don't think so.

You can say it.

No.

It's allowed.

I haven't.

I'm a big fan of Clueless, the movie.

It's a terrific.

Because you're a genius.

Yeah, it's a great movie.

Sure.

Very cool.

But I, yeah, I don't think I was assigned it in high school.

I read Jane.

No, I read.

I don't know.

You read Jane Eyre?

Something.

Yeah, I wasn't.

Yeah, I mean, it's first person present.

I'm sorry.

Is it?

Oh, no, it's first past.

It's first past.

That's fine.

I think.

Reader, I married him.

I very much felt like things between Shakespeare and James Joyce, except for a few like small,

like the romantics maybe really are.

This is really fine.

We are.

There's no.

There's no judgment zone.

You like books you like and you don't like books you don't like.

But it seems like Nikki likes books.

Likes Jane Austen.

I would.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Let me let me set the scene for you.

Please.

OK.

It is.

It is a year of our Lord.

Nineteen ninety five.

OK.

Oh, boy.

I was there, too.

OK.

I remember this.

Clueless came out.

Right.

Yeah.

I was I was but a teen and like Cher and Dion and just like people of color.

And I was it just was burned in my brain.

Like everyone wanted a little set up that Cher had to like chose her outfits.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It.

And I found out that that was a retelling of Emma.

And I'm like, well, let me get in the white folks business.

So I started reading Emma.

And honestly, I was just like, not a fave.

OK.

But then in nineteen ninety five.

Also, that big eight hour pride and prejudice.

Yes.

Colin first coming out.

Yes.

Mercury.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like that came out in nineteen ninety five.

And then.

That's right.

That's right.

Like that.

That sense and sensibility with Emma Thompson, like having that like emotional breakdown on the Shays Lounge.

Yeah.

With Grant.

When was directed by Ang Lee?

That is a stunning movie.

Come on.

When was the Gwyneth Paltrow, Emma?

That was ninety seven or ninety nine years later.

Fall nineteen ninety six.

It was the first week I was at college.

I went to the movies with my new roommate.

Come on.

Do you guys understand?

Something was happening around.

I don't know how we came.

And they were all like beautiful people falling in like beautiful love in beautiful places.

Gorgeous, gorgeous, like stories of like people coming together despite these odds.

And I just felt at that moment that it had imprinted in my brain.

It just imprinted somehow.

And I was a teenager and I was like, this better not affect me in any way sexually.

And I was like, I'm gonna die.

I'm gonna die.

Turns out I was a ruin.

I was a ruin.

Amazing.

It was just a blurt of time, I think, in my life.

Well, there is also so much discussion of and it's sort of a throwaway discussion that everybody sort of acknowledges about Austin that she's like making such clear social commentary as she writes.

And one of the things that people who don't read the books but only see the films or miniseries don't notice is how much Austin is just in the business.

Yes.

Like discussion of so many laws and like events and a war going on.

And she has a lot of opinions.

She has a lot of opinions.

And she has a lot of really sneaky one liners about landowners, about gentry, about women, about agency.

Yeah.

She is just giving this time period and the people a lot of side eye.

And that's one of the that's one of the reasons why I like to think of myself as like.

Like the like the sassy black friend, like she was like there's that trope right of this like side character and everyone like there's a lot of reason to give that character side eye.

But I always felt like those characters had this ability to kind of speak the truth of a situation to the main characters without like impunity.

Like they were like the jester who could just the only one who could tell the truth to the king without getting his head cut off because it was a joke.

Right.

And so like Jane Austen saying.

Talking about the lack of agency of these women and focusing on the marriage market is ridiculous as it was, was really one of these ways that she was able to make fun of and bring like awareness to a knowledge of like women's place in in the world.

I mean, you know, she had feelings about who owned a house when when your father died.

Right.

Yeah.

She had she had a POV.

Yeah.

And I think that that's also the really.

Interesting thing.

People don't.

So one, people really think of Austen as as a political voice, like a commentary on a on a time in a society.

They also tend to sort of diminish Austen.

I can't imagine why against other authors when she really gave us as as authors deep third POV.

Right.

Like she was writing in third person.

But her.

Narrators were the first were in many ways the first of a kind that Rome and now romance is very much built like third person romance is very much built on this concept.

Thanks in large part to Austen that like.

Yes, ma'am.

The narrative voice tells you more about feeling than anything else.

And that belongs in so many ways.

It belongs to romance almost exclusively and to and thanks to Austen.

So like aside from just being fun and funny and like telling a great love story.

She was literally changing the way people write books.

And changing the way people like the tools that people use to communicate romantic feeling and feeling at all.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

So you come to writing.

Yes.

Nikki Payne comes to writing.

And what.

So was it just sort of obvious that you were going to do Austen retellings?

I mean, obviously, Austen retellings are in the zeitgeist.

Yes.

But.

For me, I this is this is strange.

I'm like a sci-fi girly.

Like I grew up like I'm a very hardcore Star Trek.

You know, like I have a favorite captain, you know, like we like and I have written and wrote like so much sci-fi.

And I was writing all this sci-fi and like it was getting no traction.

Like people don't love me.

And every, you know, agent was like, get out of here with your weird.

Yeah.

And and I was just in this space of feeling like really dejected.

And I know one of the things that gets me out of that feeling is like experience is really like lighthearted joy.

And I was like going back to Jane Austen and reading Jane Austen and literally just like this is so joyful for me.

And I started again writing that Lisa and Dorsey.

In this space of I'm not going to.

Focus on all of these no's.

I just want to write something joyful and do something fun and silly.

And just for me, the girlies, you know, and then I entered it into Pitch Wars and everything just kind of bouldered from there.

Can you explain Pitch Wars?

Yeah.

So Pitch Wars is a Twitter competition where you.

Well, first it starts off as a submission.

Right.

And you submit your work.

And it's like it can be as rough.

Or kind of it has to be completed, but it doesn't have to be perfect.

So you submit your work and you say, hey, I have this idea.

And, you know, please.

Think about this.

I think there's maybe a cohort of 100 or so folks from all different genres.

And it was going strong for quite a while.

It was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it was really this place, particularly for people of color, to kind of jump over what can be like being at the bottom of everything.

Every query slush pile.

So I just saw this as like this really cool opportunity.

I thought I created something with a lot of joy and I felt really good about it.

And so I submitted it to Pitch Wars and won Pitch Wars in a way that anyone can win.

It's just like they're selected, you know, and got an agent from there and then as an agent and then got with Berkeley.

And it just again, it just rolled out so quickly that I always see Jane.

Austin and my anchor in Jane.

Austin is like, how do I I kind of return to joy?

How do I think about myself returning to myself in this in these moments of like sadness?

Like, how do I think about joy and everything working out in the end, even when societal structures are kind of against you?

And Jane Austin reminds me of that all the time.

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Blue Box Press, publishers of Visions of Flesh and Blood.

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Thank you to Blue Box Press, Jennifer Armantrout and Raven Salvador for sponsoring this week's episode.

So the new book.

Sex, Lies and Sensibility is a retelling of sorts of Sense and Sensibility.

So can you talk a little bit about how that came to be?

Everybody on the podcast already knows about Pride and Protest because we loved it so much.

We talked about it a bunch.

Yeah.

So Sense and Sensibility came because I was thinking.

I got this two book contract and it was essentially like, well, you know, you're going to.

You're going to do.

Let's say you do another Jane Austen.

I was just like, yes, obviously.

Persuasion on deck.

Say less.

And and they're like, oh, no, we should.

It should be a sense and sensibility.

And I'm like.

Ill.

Right.

Like, honestly, I was like ill.

Edward Ferraris.

Come on.

Like, come on.

Is he a hero?

Is he even a hero?

How could you?

Like.

How could you read Sense and Sensibility and not secretly not secretly crush on Colonel

Brandon and Eleanor?

They were obviously.

I mean, they were just they were mind melding.

All of this to say that I just thought it was going to be impossible to to make an Edward

Ferraris that anyone would want to root for just to want to, like, actually get the.

Hugh Grant is just ruined for all of us.

That's.

It's like, I'm sorry.

Like, you just.

He was just ineffectual.

I just I found the character.

Not just Hugh Grant, but like the way that he was written.

And I understand.

I feel like I fundamentally understand.

Like Jane Austen was like, look, girl, he's come close.

You find a dude that does what he says he's going to do.

Do not let go.

You know, like I understand the unique je ne sais quoi of Edward Ferraris.

It's like.

At a time.

A book of a time.

A romance of a time.

Like everybody wanted him to be.

This thing to them.

And the one thing about him, when you open up the sense of sensibility, it's just like,

but he was determined to be something else.

Right.

And we get it.

We love you for that.

But he was just he was a hard hero for me to root for.

And so when they're like, it has to be a sense of sensibility.

I'm like, OK, I got to I got to find a way to make Edward and Eleanor two people I can

really root for.

And I started thinking about.

How and again, as a cultural anthropologist, I'm always thinking about intercultural conversations

that could potentially be interesting.

And.

Yeah, I just started to think about this.

This woman who was.

Well known for what she had done with her body in one way and then becomes well known

for what she had done with her body in another way.

And just thinking about what would make somebody so reticent to to be who they really are in

the world.

And I started to think of Nora from from that from that perspective of what would make Eleanor

this way and what would make Edward this way in a way that would make sense in in our century.

So how did you decide on Maine on right?

Like, you know, kind of how did I mean, because I think adaptations like a really interesting.

Yeah.

Especially with like Austin.

I mean, you know, as a someone who doesn't read Austin, I'm sort of fascinated by how

malleable it really seems to be.

I mean, you know, there are a million of them.

Right.

So that to me speaks to like a really powerful kind of blueprint for a relationship or like

the way people interact with each other.

If you can just like sort of really like spin it into so many different ways.

So how did like how did the process take you from there and those feelings to where it

ended up?

Yeah.

One of the things about their character.

Kind of exile to Barton is that what what the sister of Fanny was really doing was like

essentially kind of ruining their lives.

Right.

Only not only minimizing their the money that they receive just increment by increment.

She was taking that money away.

She was also kind of moving them out of their the marriage market.

She was throwing them to the boonies to the nowhere bill.

And so for a woman at that time when she's able to that was there the time when they're

able to.

Kind of express the only agency that they could have perhaps marry into this space and

you know be seen in this different way.

She moves them essentially to the boonies.

And one of the ways that I wanted to like bring that to life was this idea of like Maine

kind of lives in lore for black folk about like not having any black folk there.

So it's like this place that's famous for not having black people.

And so when you think about moving like.

Two black girls to a place.

Everyone is like sis.

What are you going to do.

Like you think of Maine.

And you're just like oh well she's I don't know what to do.

I don't know what to tell you.

You know you do.

You're doomed.

You're doomed.

I mean you know what's funny is my little romance will be at everybody little romance

is coming to Fated Mates Live and he goes to college in Connecticut and he has friends

who go to I don't know like Amherst.

And is that in Maine.

No it's in Western Massachusetts.

What's in Maine.

But basically.

It's basically the same.

Bowdoin.

Something.

Yeah Bowdoin.

Something's in Maine.

And he has friends there and he just like kind of like he gets this look on his face

that's just very much like we're not going to talk about Maine mother.

And I was like I understand.

This is a pass.

This is a divide we cannot cross.

Fine.

Well but what's really interesting and something that I've thought about a lot with your books

is and the comparison to Austin.

So people who don't really have don't have have not accessed Austin.

Or don't like spend a lot of time thinking about Austin.

You know like their Roman Empire is they've they don't realize that like the stakes in

these books are so high because all Austin is interested in I think in a lot of ways

for her heroines is the loss of a safety net.

Right.

Like what she does.

I mean Jen talks all we talk all the time about how we love a heroine against the wall.

Right.

Like the prototypical heroines against the wall.

Are these Austin heroines because they have no they are always stripped of like fathers

brothers money power influence like they don't have home their literal homes are being taken

away from them.

And in many ways that the struggle with a retelling in 2024 of Austin is figuring out

how to strip the safety net away without like.

You know at a time when women can get jobs have credit cards and you know marry who they

want.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Don't worry they're worried they're going to roll that back.

Okay.

Woo.

Hot in here.

Okay.

We got intense for just one second there.

No that's that's so real that you say that because one of the things that I really wanted

to focus on.

What if you read any Austin the first thing she's going to rattle off she's going to tell

you about everybody's bag.

You know.

She's going to say like.

Yeah.

This dude.

This much.

I mean literally.

No seriously like you don't spend the entire beginning and it lets you know like where

they stand.

Ten thousand pounds a year.

Right.

Ten thousand pounds a year.

Like why was that an important feature of who Mr.

Dorsey was.

Right.

And so when we think about like retelling a Jane Austen I feel like you'd be remiss without

the the the way that those strong economic factors impact.

Yeah.

These characters.

When when I was thinking.

About bear.

Everyone like whether you love pride and protest or not they're just like billionaires.

Boo.

And a part of me was like OK.

Like what if I made a hero who was who was just fried bologna sandwiches broke.

Yeah.

Right.

Can we could we love him.

Right.

Could we love him.

Can we root for this person who is at the at at the mat.

Right.

Or like financially.

And when we think about it.

When we think about what was at stake for Edward moving forward for Edward Farrar's when he decided that I'm going to do this because I said I was going to do this and having everything taken away from him because he was going going to do what he said he was going to do.

Those economic stakes were life and death at that time.

And I wanted to to infuse the true level of like economic stakes at play.

And it wasn't like hey you guys love conquers all.

All you have to do is love someone.

And you can all live in.

Bears trailer in at the you know and everything will be happy.

And one of my characters Lou is one of the first people to tell Nora like no it's not.

I'm sorry.

Love is not just that you know we're not children anymore.

And so those economic factors become a major and really important decision like fulcrum for both of them.

Yeah.

Like they can't move forward without having that aspect of their life together.

But at the same time what you're doing here.

So you give Nora really interesting you strip Nora's safety net in really interesting way.

Right.

So she is.

I don't think any of this is spoilers but she's so she has discovered that she and her sister hurt she and her sister discover like pretty instantly that their father had a whole other family and that family is the primary family.

Yeah.

The real dashes.

The M dashes if you will.

Yeah.

And so.

And they are left this kind of in in the middle of nowhere.

And on top of all this and all that would be enough.

Right.

Like we have all read that romance novel before.

I mean not exactly but.

Right.

But then you layer on this kind of this in the reputational scandal.

Yeah.

And I feel like it's required in a lot of ways because the loss of money in the Regency.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

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Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But in the United States in 2024 the loss of money might you know ruin certain pieces

aspects of it but like people believe in sort of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.

Right.

So but you give her of a video like a social media scandal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this is so interesting because I feel like particularly for sense of sensibility

there is so there's of course.

said economic theme, but when we talk about sensibility, if we're not talking about reputation,

if we're not talking about gossip, you know, like we're not reading the same thing. And so like

having, having a person who is trying to make herself small, who has been in the process of

trying to make herself small after this, after this scandal. And she's coming, she comes to these

micro-realizations all the time about how she knows how things will kind of turn out, right?

Like because of what's happened to her in the past, because of this sex tape, I'm saying tape,

but because of the sex tape. The James Spader, that's just like an homage to James Spader. It's

fine. Yes. Then she, like she hyper-focuses on how people will engage and interact with her.

And she is in a, in a way she's using her own reputation as a, like an excuse to like, not

really engage. And so when we think about Eleanor, who was constantly like telling her

youngest sister, you know, like chill, like, come on, think of, think of how people are going to

think of you. I wanted to build this sense of like, outside of Regency, what would make a person,

particularly in like 2024, when, when something you tweet, something you say can go viral,

you can become a meme just like accidentally. And suddenly,

you're like, I'm going to be a meme. And so I'm like, I'm going to be a meme. And so I'm like,

you're famous. Your face is famous. Your body is famous. And it's so outside of your control.

And so for Nora to constantly be cautioning her sister about what can be outside of her control

and how her actions can like get outsized results is something that like, I wanted Nora to know

personally and feel personally to say like, don't go, don't go wilding. You know what I mean?

Trust me. You know, I have been there and you know, the results is not cute.

Right. You don't want to have to fix yourself. It's bad enough.

You have to fix this house or this.

It's the other side of reality, right? Like you go viral, but like what happens

with on the other side of it, these are real people who are famous for that one time in their

life when they did something. And everyone thinks that they know you from, from that one meme,

that one 45 seconds of film, 45 seconds of film and everyone in the world knows you.

Yeah. So you set it all against a, a renovation. They have, they inherit this dilapidated in,

perfect.

Perfect. Love it. And they discover that of course there's a handsome man who's also on this land.

I mean, terrific. And then they have to build this in and re essentially build themselves a new safety net community, love, and this house.

Yeah.

So when we asked you to come on, we said, we've come on and talk. I mean, we've done a lot. Now we've spent, you know, however long talking about.

We've talked about Austin and we'll stop Jen, but that's fine. I'm still here. I just want y'all to know that I'm here.

But we want to talk about renovation romance because this is a big thing in romance. And the more I've thought about it over the last couple of months, the more I've been like, oh no, this is like bedrock to like modern romance, the modern romance novel.

And I would even say, you know what I was thinking? I was thinking about like my first like real,

really memorable encounter with this like trope. And it actually was not in a book. It was in a, I'm going to age myself. It was in a movie with Tom Hanks and Shelley Long called The Money Pit.

Oh, yes.

Have you seen this?

Oh, yeah. Don't, right? Don't, by the way, everyone, don't watch that movie after you've bought a hundred year old house.

And it's just like, all I remember is that like, it, like they buy this house and it is like a money pit. Like at one point, like she falls through a fucking tub.

The back feeling.

Yeah.

I mean, and I just remember.

Just really being like fascinated by it. Like Tom Hanks in the eighties had a string of very cheesy, funny movies before he became like a serious actor.

He did.

Outside of like, you know, like death or, you know, like what can put a relationship under an intense amount of pressure?

Yes.

Renovating something. Right. Having to not only like deal with the stress of things not going the way it's supposed to go, but making decisions together and like finding out that you have different.

I mean, right.

Right.

Right.

Right.

So I think it really just reveals something in a way that feels like it's not trauma based, which I think is nice.

Yes. Honestly, my first entree into renovations, it was historicals. Right. There, there's always this woman who, who's like a delicate English rose who's transported to this dilapidated.

Keep Scottish.

I have a list.

Okay. Okay.

Yes. That's true. For sure.

Scottish castle. Right. And.

Why are the furs on the windows?

It's dirty.

I don't know.

Nobody's changed.

The rushes on the floor.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

There are just.

Particularly. I mean, I think the first one I read was about this heroine who makes lists. Right.

And, and, and it was all about like, she was ingratiating herself with the community, with the people that the Laird was in charge of. And she would do all of these things by way of renovation.

And then at the end of the book, not only was there.

Relationship solid, but their house was begging.

Yeah.

And the servants stopped feeding her poison. Like it was just perfect.

Well, so then that's the other part of it too. Right. Like it's going from like a structure to a home. Right. I mean, it's like, like, like a very explicit metaphor for that too. Right.

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Avon Books, publishers of Tessa Bailey's Fangirl Down.

Sarah, what is a fangirl to do?

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So he does that. He quits. She's like, fine.

I'm over it. Only then her family's golf shop gets destroyed in a hurricane and he sees her and realizes that he can help her out.

So he shows up and he says, you can be my caddy because she knows all how to golf herself.

Is that a euphemism?

Yes. And obviously once she becomes his caddy and not just his fan, things really change between them.

This is a great romance, right?

She essentially has all the faith in the world in him and herself.

They have to trust.

They have to travel to faraway destinations and be in sexy hotel rooms and balls fly around.

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Jen and I were texting this morning.

I think the textbook example of this is Julie Gardwood's The Bride, which we did a deep dive on.

Al Kincaid.

Everybody take a break and just say it yourself.

Moment of silence for Al Kincaid.

The Bride.

And the reason why, and we've done a deep dive on it, but if you have not read The Bride or re-read The Bride recently, it's very worth it.

First of all, it's hysterically funny.

The prototypical comedy in romance, right?

It's so sexy, so funny, so romantic.

It's exactly what I want rom-coms to be.

But more importantly, the heroine asks, he's basically like, now you're mine, quite literally.

And you just live here and just don't bother me.

We'll have sex at night.

But otherwise, just kind of don't make a mess of things and don't change anything.

And she's like, okay.

And she's obviously like, I'm changing fucking everything.

Like, this man does not know how to live.

And then she says, do you mind if I just, like, rearrange the kitchen?

And he's like, no, that's fine.

The kitchen is women's stuff.

Yes.

That's ladies' stuff.

You know what?

Perfect.

Rearrange the kitchen.

The kitchen is in a building that is at a distance from the main house.

And so the servants are cold in the winter.

They have to walk through the snow.

Food through the snow.

So by rearranging the kitchen.

And she decides, I'm just going to move it to attach it to the main house.

And he goes away war lording or something.

And then comes back.

And there's a hole in the, they're literally brick by brick.

She has amassed all of the soldiers he's left at home to keep them safe.

To just, like, basically renovate the kitchen.

Like, bring the whole thing closer, attach it to the main keep.

And he's like, what on earth is happening?

And his, like, buddy.

Who was left in charge of keeping her safe was like, she told us you said she could rearrange the kitchen.

And then he's, like, stuck in this very great hero moment.

Where he's like, well.

And in his head he's like, I didn't mean she could fucking move a building.

But I can't admit that I didn't.

Like, right.

So, yes, I did say she could do that.

That's another perfect example.

It's like this great way for both the hero.

And.

And heroine.

To, like, show.

Like, okay.

I'm a caring person.

Like, this started off with, like, the servants being cold.

Yeah.

So, this is like this fundamental.

Like.

Yeah.

Right.

Personality chain.

Right.

To say, like, she cares about this.

And she's going to rebuild this.

And then he is a man of his word.

And man of honor.

So, he can't knock upside the head.

You know.

Going.

You know.

Completely outside of what he said.

He has to be like.

Exactly.

Okay.

But we don't want smoke in the house, honey.

Exactly.

We have to build a walkway.

He.

Like, they eventually.

They.

They invent the breezeway.

That's what happens.

They invent the breezeway.

The shot gun house.

Can I mention.

I don't.

Do.

I mean.

Maybe we can have more historicals.

Because I want to talk about another.

Really.

Like.

Prototypical.

Renovation romance.

Kind of trope.

For me.

Is the secret house.

And so.

Here's what.

And.

A recent example of this.

Is love her.

Or lose her.

By Tessa Bailey.

Which is a book.

I actually really liked.

I think it's a really.

Great marriage.

And trouble romance.

Which.

Fix her up series.

Yes.

Right.

So.

Yeah.

Their whole.

There's a whole series.

I really like the first one.

Which is.

Fix her up.

Fix her up.

It's this.

The set.

In the second one though.

Like Dom.

Essentially is.

You know.

He went off to army.

And he came back.

A mess.

And.

They can't talk anymore.

They had this like.

Super intense.

Like.

I mean.

They just like.

Met in high school.

And it's just like.

Locked in.

And.

He.

Doesn't know really.

How to make her happy.

And he doesn't know how to talk to her anymore.

And like.

The book is really.

About like.

One of the things I really liked.

About the book is.

Like.

We understand that he.

Is really wrong.

But like.

She can find ways.

That she.

Has not.

Like.

Been.

Like.

Like that.

Like love language idea.

Like as cheesy as it is.

Right.

Like she hasn't been taking care of him either.

Like how can I show him.

That like.

I care about him.

How can he show me.

He cares about me.

And.

It turns out that he is.

Secretly bought a house.

That he has been secretly renovating by himself.

That he was hoping to basically just like.

Show to her.

And then she would understand.

Like how much he loves her.

Yes.

And I.

Have got to tell you.

I love secret house.

Like.

I just.

Even as a kid was like.

Wait.

You could just like.

Buy a house for somebody.

And then be like.

Surprise.

Like those old Toyota commercials.

Where the car is in like.

In the ribbon.

Like with a bow.

And you didn't have to talk to your wife about it.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Like she would not have any opinions at all.

About any of it.

Obviously.

I mean.

Toyota.

Of course she said yes.

Right.

I guess it was probably Alexis.

Anyway.

This is the.

This is.

You're totally right.

That trope exists.

In it.

It is in so many books.

The like.

And I bought your childhood home.

And fixed it up.

Yes.

Or I bought your.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Like.

Yes.

All of that.

And I.

I really think that it's like a.

I think it's an important.

Like kind of.

Because it's like.

Home renovation is penance.

Yeah.

Which frankly.

There are no better penance.

Than.

You have to deal with.

Than drywalling.

Exactly.

Okay.

Okay.

I see.

I see your secret house.

And I want to rise you.

House of secrets.

Right.

Oh.

Okay.

I like it.

Like.

If we're thinking of renovations.

I'm thinking of like the queen of renovations.

Romance.

Like Nora Roberts.

Nora Roberts.

So many.

Yeah.

Loves a reno romance.

Loves a reno.

But also like.

In.

I remember reading one.

Where.

You know.

They are renovating this house.

And she's a child star.

And.

She finds these letters.

But that's not the only one.

Right.

Where you're renovating a house.

You knock out a wall.

And now suddenly.

There's this mystery of the house.

Right.

It's a mystery of like.

What has happened to the former owners.

Or.

I get.

Particularly how it relates to someone's childhood.

Or the future.

Or maybe someone's like.

Literally.

Going into the future.

Or past.

Like with.

With the house.

So it's like the.

The renovations.

Like.

Also open up this kind of.

I don't know.

Like this portal of secrets.

Into this other.

Into this other world.

And I just love when.

When a house.

One.

Secret house.

Is like.

Hey.

I did this thing without you.

But the house.

Can also like be.

Full of these.

Secrets.

Yeah.

And like.

Even if there are no.

Hiccups.

With how the house comes together.

Which is often the case.

When those houses are full of those things.

Like the two characters still have to like.

Put their heads together.

To solve.

This new mystery.

That the house.

Renovation.

Is kind of like.

Brought.

Brought up.

So.

A good example of that is.

End of story.

By Kylie Scott.

Absolutely.

Have you read that one?

Where she.

Like they basically.

Find the letter.

In the wall.

That is their future.

Divorce.

Certificate.

Oh.

Right.

I never read that.

And I meant to.

She has such good ideas.

Right.

And so.

There.

And you know.

And he's basically like.

Why are you punking me like this?

It's like her.

Ex.

Her ex is like.

Best friend.

Is going to help her.

Renovate.

Or whatever.

And she's like.

No.

I.

I didn't.

Like.

I don't know if this is either.

And it's such a like.

Juicy beginning.

I mean.

It's really like.

What is going to happen?

It just seems unreal.

Right.

So yeah.

That's.

That's a really good example.

Of that.

Right.

Well.

I mean.

The idea of a.

Home in chaos.

Right.

Like a house.

In chaos.

Yeah.

Is such a perfect foil.

To.

Where a romance.

Has to be at the beginning.

Of the romance novel.

Right.

Like.

Yes.

It's.

Impossible.

You know.

No way it's going to work out.

An impossible situation.

And so.

Only then.

Once you triumph.

Over this impossible situation.

Like.

We've just blown a hole.

In our wall.

Yes.

Can you.

Like.

Stitch everything together.

And be.

Whole.

And.

More importantly.

Like.

Comfortable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

Tell.

So.

I mean.

Why.

Is that.

Is that all it is.

Like.

I feel like there's.

Why.

Why.

Home renovation.

I'm going to say something else.

That I think is kind of sexist.

But I also think it's true.

Yeah.

I know.

I know what you're going to say.

Well.

Listen.

A handsome man is going to come into your house.

And be competent.

Yeah.

Probably.

He's going to have to take off his shirt.

Come on.

Competency.

It's real hot.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Yeah.

He's going to have to like.

Wrench things.

And hammer things.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Like.

I'm a simple woman.

Fine.

Can we just be for real about it.

Like.

Literally.

I am.

Like.

I have a PhD in anthropology.

And like.

Virtual.

Dynamics.

And like.

But the way.

That.

Sometimes when.

Like.

My husband is like.

Holding a hammer.

The way like.

Yeah.

It feels.

It's like.

It escapes my mind.

Yeah.

Just like.

Oh man.

Under the sink.

Changing out a pipe.

Like.

Get out of here.

Who even knew you could do that?

I'm like.

Protect me sir.

Like.

What are we doing?

Right.

So no.

That's.

That's real.

I think there's some primordial aspect of that.

Like.

Like.

Making home and hearth.

Right.

Yeah.

That like.

I don't know.

I think some of it is.

Some of it is lizard brain.

And when I say lizard brain.

I just mean like.

Literally.

Yeah.

I have a great book for lizard brain.

Reading.

If anybody would like that.

I want to talk about Lauren Lane.

I've talked about her before.

She writes a great.

Like.

Real.

It goes down real easy.

A Lauren Lane contemporary.

You know what I mean?

Like.

Couple hours.

You're delighted at the end.

She wrote a book called.

Love on Lexington Avenue.

All of her books are set in Manhattan.

Love it.

The heroine Claire.

Her husband has just recently died.

And in the wake of his death.

She has realized.

That he was cheating on her.

In a long term situation.

And everyone.

In their whole friend group knew.

Oh.

And didn't say anything.

That's awful.

And.

I mean.

I mean.

Awful.

Right.

Rock bottom.

And.

Now you're rebuilding your whole life.

In this like.

Apartment on Lexington Avenue.

That's beautiful.

That they built together.

And that she like.

Comes home one day.

And she's like.

It's so fucking beige.

I hate it.

And she's like.

I want to throw everything out.

And like.

Start again.

And.

She hires.

This like.

Absolute.

Brute.

Of a hot.

Contractor.

To come in.

And renovate her apartment.

And she's like.

I want it all to be like.

Pink.

And I'm buying like.

Velour.