Contracts of Love & Money That Make or Break Relationships | James Sexton

Welcome to the Human Relab podcast where we discuss science, science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

My guest today is James Sexton.

James Sexton is a renowned attorney with over 25 years of experience in family law,

specializing in pre-nupptural agreements and divorces.

He is known as what many call the voice of reason between love and legal.

Today we discuss something that might seem counterintuitive, which is how the legal frameworks

and contracts surrounding relationships, particularly pre-nupptural agreements, can actually

deepen emotional connection and build trust between partners.

As James points out, intimacy and trust are fundamentally about the ability to be your true

self with your partner and them with you.

It's about allowing ourselves to be vulnerable.

It's also about having a same team spirit, of course, respect for one another and admiration

for each other's unique qualities.

Today we explore how pre-nup-show agreements, which most often interviewed as being unromantic

or pessimistic, can actually serve his ways to establish a sense of safety for both people and prevent many common conflicts and misunderstandings.

As James puts it, everyone has a pre-nup.

You either have one that was created by the state legislature or you can tailor one to you

and your partner's unique needs.

He also points out something that many people will find surprising, which is that the vast majority

of people who do preenups stay married, and

yet most people opt not to do them.

We also discuss love itself, and the key questions that we all need to ask to find the

right partner, and if you have one, to build the strongest possible bonds with them.

The information in today's episode is going to be extremely important for anyone looking

for or currently in a relationship, whether you're single, dating, engaged, or married, understanding how the legal and emotional frameworks that support lasting relationships

intersect can help you navigate one of life's most rewarding but challenging journeys

with much greater awareness and intention and probability of success.

Before you begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching

and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring

zero cost to consumer information

about science and science related tools

to the general public.

In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.

And now from my discussion with James Sexton.

James Sexton, welcome.

Thank you.

It's good to be here.

And wanting to do this for a while.

I was a long time in the meeting.

I think if two guys sit down, one of them

a lawyer who's known was a long time in the making. Yeah. I think if two guys sit down, one of them a lawyer,

who's known as a divorce lawyer,

and they're talking about divorce and love,

and money, and contracts, and the ending of things,

I think there's a understandable default mindset

where the female half-a-rardians are probably

in a thing like, here are a couple of guys

talking about relationships and divorce

through the lens of their white chromosome.

Ah, which of course it's impossible to avoid completely because I haven't done the carry-out typing,

but you have a white chromosome and I do as well.

I would like to know in your experience working with male clients and female clients, is there something unique to the female experience of divorce?

Or the female experience of realizing, wow, this contract that I thought was for life,

may not or is it not for life that drives a kind of female specific set of psychological responses.

Here I'm basically asking for a generalization.

Yeah.

And I want to be clear.

I'm not asking this for politically correct reasons.

I'm asking this because like I said, two guys sitting down to talk about relationships

love and divorce, it's kind of where the mind goes.

Yeah.

And I mean, before I would get, you know, before I would get canceled in the comments

for being misandrist or misogynist.

I always try to say that the things I'm observing are a function of having divorced thousands

of people, men and women.

For 25 years, I've done nothing but divorce law on a full-time basis.

I mean, I'm a truly full-time basis.

I wake up in the morning thinking about this stuff.

I go to bed thinking about this stuff. I work six, seven days a week. That's why I'm in a truly full-time basis. So I wake up in the morning thinking about this stuff,

I go to bed thinking about this stuff,

I work six, seven days a week, that's why I'm divorced.

I really, really love the work.

And so all the things I'm saying

are really just my observations.

So in response to that question,

I think the world relates to divorced men

and divorced women differently.

And I think people's self-conception, right,

is very different.

So I often tell my male clients

when we're dealing with a custody case, for example,

which is arguments over when a child's gonna live with whom

and when they're gonna spend time with them.

And there was this concept called

the maternal presumption,

which was around legally for years,

or something called the tender years Year of Stocktron.

It's called different things in different states.

But it was around until probably the 1980s.

And that was that a child was assumed to stay in the custody of the mother, unless you

could prove she was an unfit mother.

So men were automatically second-class when it came to being a parent.

So it was automatic.

It was the default.

Now of course, in the 80s, there was a different make-up of the workforce.

There was a different gender roles, obviously,

in terms of a sign-ment of child care responsibilities.

It was a different world of Sunday, right?

But that was eradicated in the 1980s.

And the Ben Sheven, the judges, have changed dramatically.

When I started practicing 25 years ago,

90% of the judges I appeared in front of were old white men.

Period.

Like that was it. It was old white men.

And so I got in the habit of like have a short haircut,

hide the tattoos, like look like you're coming out of the set of inherent the wind.

Like look like you are what, you know, because you got a conservative old man as your judge.

That is not to make up the bench anymore. The bench now is as diverse as the people that it serves.

So one of the things though that I tell my male clients

is even though that maternal presumption is gone,

women fight harder for custody than men do.

Really?

I'd love to say to you that it's because the maternal

and strengthened bond is so strong that women just

care about their kids and they want custody.

I don't really believe it's that.

I think it's the following.

If you and I just met normal life,

like we're just out at a bar,

and I set up and I didn't even say,

so Jim, tell me about yourself, and I say,

well, I'm divorced.

My kids live with their mom.

I see them every other weekend and once a week for dinner.

You would go, okay, cool, Jim's divorced guy.

You know, he's working, he's just saying,

I'm a woman.

And I say, I have two kids, they live with their father.

I see them every other weekend.

You go, what is wrong with this one?

Is she on substance use issues, mental health issues?

Like why does he have custody of a kids?

Why doesn't she have custody of a kids?

So there is an element of how motherhood is perceived as an identity,

even for a working woman, that it's like,

if you don't have your kids on a full time or close to full time basis,

there's this process.

So that infuses, that changes the way that women are in custody litigation.

That's a huge piece of it.

like women are in custody litigation.

That's a huge piece of it.

On the other side of things, you know, the gender stuff in divorce and in breakups is really

interesting and complicated in this sense that, for example, if a man sheets on his wife,

he's a piece of shit, can't keep it in his pants, he's a child. Why couldn't he be honest?

A woman sheets on her husband.

She was driven into the arms of another man.

She couldn't get, he wasn't meeting her needs.

This was her journey of self-discovery.

Like, if you see him popular in media,

like watch any film, any TV show,

when the man sheets, it's like he's a letterous guy.

You just get, the woman sheets, it's like,

oh, this poor woman, like she,

she needed to find herself, she needed like her e-pray love moment. And so that's, again,

like the way the world interacts with people in breakups and in the clay that builds

to the breakup is very different. So how people react to it is very different. Men in my experience as clients,

there's a lot of anger that manifests in very honest ways,

like very blunt ways, like very,

kind of, you know, because men are, you know,

men are, I belabor recently in one of the recent specializes

thinking about men are allowed to be two things.

Angry or fine, that's it, like angry or fine.

And I used to always say that growing up, you know, I'm 52,

like growing up, I had two choices.

You're either Clint Eastwood or Richard Simmons.

Those were your two choices as a man.

You were either like stoic, you know,

stony, no emotion or gay.

That was it.

Those were like your two choices.

And of course it's totally dishonest

of course the reality is is men have a different, you know, we have an emotional vocabulary

it just expresses in different ways. But anger is something men are allowed to have. So when

men are sad they seem angry, when men are angry they seem angry. Women, my experience of women

and divorce is they're much more forgiving in unhappy marriages

They're much more willing to stay in relatively unhappy marriages and sort of torture their partner

And then when they've decided okay, I'm out

There is a level of like yeah, whatever we got to do we got to do like that

Sometimes to me as someone who does this for a living,

is like, oh, okay, like you're just willing to go there.

In a mercenary.

Yeah, just there's, you know, like when,

and you look at the history of the marriage

and you go, wow, when they were together,

like there's nothing she wouldn't do for him.

And now it's ending and man,

there's nothing she won't do to him.

Like she is just weaponized on him. And it's ending and man, there's nothing she won't do to him. Like she is just weaponized on him.

And it's kind of, it used to be surprising to me.

It's not really surprising to me anymore.

I think I have a friend who was a criminal lawyer

for many years, criminal defense attorney,

really good one in the city.

And we used to laugh because he used to say

as a criminal lawyer, he sees bad people at their best.

And as a divorce lawyer, I sees bad people at their best. And as a divorce lawyer, I see good people at their worst.

And it's always astounding to me

because I've reached a level in my career thankfully

where I represent elite athletes,

I represent people in the financial markets

who literally move markets with their trades,

people in entertainment industry, and they are as bad

at this as any of us. Like there is bad at relationships, there is bad at heartbreak as anybody.

So, you know, there were differences in the gender piece. There are differences in the socio-economic

piece, but at the end of the day, it's hurt people hurting people.

And it kind of looks roughly the same.

It's very interesting.

And there's a lot in there.

I want to return to this sort of divergent response

to men cheating versus women cheating little bit later.

Super interesting area for exploration.

I feel like I have a PhD in infidelity

because it's just part of like 90 plus percent of divorces.

That's true.

Yeah.

Well, it's why people, I think, you know, mistake correlation for causation.

I mean, people all the time are like, you know, why are you getting divorced?

Because you sleeping with a secretary.

It's like, oh, that's pretty good reason to get divorced.

But you know, then when you scratch the surface, you're like, okay, but why is he sleeping

with a secretary? And there's almost always this very deep back story're like, okay, but why is he sleeping with a secretary?

And there's almost always this very deep back story

of like, well, we stop sleeping together.

Why do we stop sleeping?

Well, because he's unkind to me, well, why is he unkind to you?

Well, because you're totally indifferent to me.

And you start to go, okay, the truth's at the bottom

of a bottomless pit, and we're never going to get there.

Like, and all of those facts come with a point of view.

So when you do what I do for a living which is, you know,

full contact storytelling basically in a courtroom against someone who's trying to tell the opposite

story, you find a lot of what you're doing is just figuring out how to present the most persuasive

version of this person's subjective experience of their own life. I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors,

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We're talking about breaking one contract, the contract of marriage,

and creating a new contract, contract of divorce. I'm fascinated by contracts. In the world of business,

my business partner and I that started this podcast, I insisted that we take an even split,

that was important to me. It's absolutely critical because this podcast wouldn't be what it is without him.

And his incredible expertise.

He is the genius behind it all.

Our initial contract was on a piece of paper,

a little coffee shop in Manhattan, where I said,

how about this, how about this?

And we discussed it.

People like you give lawyers like we get high

So you say that I instantly start like you know six months later

Or so a lawyer told us we had to get a real contract. Yeah, and we did it

And I have to say it was fine and I'm glad we have contracts, but to me

All contracts whether not to scribble on a piece of paper or it's a formal contract

me all contracts, whether or not it's a scribble on a piece of paper or it's a formal contract,

contracts make me feel safe. They made me feel good. I like rules and guidelines. I like knowing

what's going to happen if for a scientist, this doesn't really exist. You like to think you can

control outcomes, but you can't and you acknowledge that and you go into the unknown. So contracts

are very reassured. Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk about the contract of marriage first.

Yeah.

And what you think is going through people's mind

when they decide to get married.

There's the engagement.

There's a lot of love, hopefully.

There's a lot of love.

Hopefully there's a lot of dopamine.

That's a wonderful thing.

Presumably there's a lot of fair mones.

There's a lot of emotional and biological stuff happening.

Sure.

There's the recognition from others. There's a lot of fair mones, there's a lot of emotional and biological stuff happening. Sure.

There's the recognition from others.

There's the party, there's the bash of party, the bash of the party, the shower, the

wedding.

I mean, there's so many things reinforcing this bond.

And every one of the things you just named are awesome.

They're great.

Like those are all positive things.

Like from the cake to the bash of the party, bash of things. Like from the cake, to the bachelor party,

bachelor at party, to the dress, to the way we're gonna

have photos taken to commemorate the moment

and sort of have this snapshot in time of who we were

and who our families were.

Like all of that, how could you not cheer for that?

Like it's phenomenal.

Well, that sounds great.

It's like, you know, like, oh, I like this ice cream.

What's not to like a ice cream?

Of course you're like ice cream. Yeah, to me it's celebration of life sounds great. It's like, you know, like, oh, I like this ice cream. What's not to like a ice cream? Of course you're like ice cream.

Yeah, to me, it's celebration of life.

Yeah.

Very different than the birth of a child, but it says,

each one of those is a celebration of the life spirit.

Yeah, and you're placing the timeline and the history

and the merging of families, the merging of clans,

like the, and sort of this, we're gonna merge now

and maybe new life comes of that.

And then that life merges with more life

and we become part of this chain,

like this is gorgeous stuff.

And this is the fundamental building blocks

of human civilization.

So it is perfectly understandable

that we get absolutely intoxicated by the thought of it

and that we get so hopped up.

But here's what people don't think about.

The term contract never gets into that discussion.

I'm telling you right now, right now,

someone's getting married somewhere,

and they've never, the word contracts never come out of it.

They don't view marriages a contract.

The two things that I, as a divorce layer,

I'm constantly thinking about is marriage as an economy

and marriage as a contract. And those are two.

The minute you say that, people assume you don't believe in or experience emotionally.

Any of those other beautiful things you just said. And I think 90 percent of the appeal of my

media work in this chapter of my life has been that people go, oh, a divorce

lawyer, this is just going to be a guy talking about how like marriage is the

worst thing ever. And in reality, I think what I'm saying is, look, this is

amazing. This is wonderful. Why wouldn't you fall in love? Why wouldn't you

have parabons? Why wouldn't you consider locking in with another person and

say, but my God, be honest with yourself about the risks involved, be honest

with yourself about the ways you can hedge that risk and be honest with yourself about

the contract and the economy because those are two things that I do not think that there

is anything unromantic, I don't think it takes away from the romance or the beauty of a thing.

You know, I often say, you're my favorite poem as a poem by Joseph Brotsky called The Song,

and he wrote it when his wife passed away.

And it's a beautiful poem about love and loss.

And the sort of refrain of the poem is I wish you were here, dear.

Like I wish you were here, dear.

I wish you were here.

I wish we sat in the car and you sat near. It's just beautiful poem. And one of the lines is, I wish you were here dear. Like I wish you were here dear, I wish you were here. I wish we sat in the car and you sat near.

It's just beautiful poem.

And one of the lines is, I wish you were here dear,

I wish you were here.

I wish I knew Noah's astronomy when stars appear.

And I remember the first time I read that line

thinking like, oh, that's so beautiful.

Because once you know astronomy,

like there's something less magical about the stars.

Is there?

I mean, I don't know.

See, I don't believe it has to be that one.

Yeah, I don't either.

The Great Richard Feynman, Nobel Prize winner

and physicist of, surely your Joe Kimister Feynman fame,

said that understanding things had a reductionist level

added to his sense of beauty with the physical world.

And I think he can.

I mean, that's my sense of biology and physiology

and what I know of psychology, understanding the I mean, that's my sense of biology and physiology and what I know of psychology,

understanding the deeper layers adds to my sense of wonder. But I acknowledge and agree with you completely that for most people.

When we think about all those things around marriage, the engagement, the wedding party,

they all imply a ton of trust. I believe in you. I faith in you.

I'm gonna merge lives with you.

Yeah.

The word contract implies somewhere in there,

a lack of trust.

I gave this little anecdote about something very different than

marriage, right?

A business contract with my business partner,

where when they said, oh, you need to have a formal contract.

Yeah.

There is something about that that implies

that things could go wrong.

Yeah. Where that there will be unforeseen circumstances that our verbal contract

Yeah. Can't anticipate and won't allow us to navigate.

Yeah. As business partners and again, far and away different arguably lesser example than a marriage contract,

which is a much bigger life milestone.

But I think what your point you're making that I think

I would slightly reframe is the following.

There is a contract that binds you and your business partner.

It was written by the legislature of the state

in which you reside.

Okay?

So do you want your relationship with this person governed by a contract you didn't write?

You had no input in and the government can change without short consent or knowledge.

And by the way, once they've changed it, you can't say, oh, I don't like that new rules.

So I don't want those to apply. Yeah, too late. Too late. So I tell everyone, you have a pre-nup.

Every married person has a pre-nup.

It was either written by the government

or written by the two people who allegedly love

a child or more than the other eight billion

other options in the world.

Now if you ask me, who is gonna write a better contract?

Unnamed politicians who are subject to being elected

and unelected, or two people

who have an abundance of optimism towards each other who get like, there's a rule set.

There's a rule set.

And if you're signing up for a rule set, you wrote or co-authored with your partner.

I think you're in a better place than saying, let's trust it to the government.

I have to tell you that I've been to the DMV.

I've never walked into the DMV and thought,

these people should be in charge of everything.

This is great.

They have got it down.

Like this is, they should be in charge of my marriage.

They should be in charge of everything.

My business dealings, they should be the ones

who make the rules, because they're clearly

so together in their thinking.

I don't feel that way.

I feel like there is tremendous value in the level

of trust and optimism that two people at the

beginning of adventure, whether that venture is a marriage, whether that venture is a business

venture.

While we're in this heavy space of optimism, excitement, trust in each other, that's the

time to say, hey, we're going to disagree about something at some point.

It happens.

It may be my fault.

I say dumb shit. I say dumb shit all the time.

So I'll probably say something that's going to upset you.

So why would you learn how to fight while you're in a fight?

Like learn how to fight before you get in a fight?

Learn the rules set.

Have a discussion about, hey, if we disagree,

what's the best way do you need a minute?

Do you need some time to yourself to kind of cool off?

Or you think kind of person that's like, no, we got to sort this out right now.

I can't go to bed angry, a fester.

So that to me, the right mindset is not

faith and trust or contracts.

I think that's the totally wrong way to frame it.

I think the right way to frame it is,

there's a contract.

There's a contract, whether you want to call it a contract or not,

just like there's an economy.

And economy is an exchange of value.

You know, this many bananas is worth, this many coconuts.

Because if it was, how many bananas were you trained me for bananas, that's not an economy.

Like we were not bringing the same thing to the table.

So it's the same thing.

Why is it a dirty word to say, hey, I'm marrying you.

Why? What do I bring to your life?

What do I mean to you?

What value do I present to you? And what What do I bring to your life? What do I mean to you? What value do I present to you?

And what value do you present to me? So I know what to protect and preserve.

You know, so I know like when that slips to start talking to you about it. And by the way,

you can tell me and remind me when, hey, this thing I loved about you is change. So like you talked about all these good things about your business partner.

Like, oh, he has this vision or he has this patience, he has this organizational skill,

and he makes up for some things that I don't have.

Like if you just said, oh, yeah, he has the exact same characteristics as me.

It's like, well, what are you eating then?

You know, it's many hands like work, maybe.

But ideally, you have the Steve Jobs and the Steve Wasneck, you know, either of whom without

the other would have been kind of, but together it's like lightning in a bottle.

So I just genuinely think framing this slightly differently and saying,

there's going to be a rule set.

So we are the best people to write that rule set.

That's the way to look at it.

Yeah, the way you're framing the contract of marriage and pre-nups.

I love it because you're putting a positive emotional lens on it, right?

Sure.

Two people who love each other, therefore,

let's discuss the contract of love and marriage.

Two people that are committed to creating perhaps,

children together in a whole life together,

and rating together, lineages,

let's get a contract to really solidify this.

Right, what do we owe each other?

You know, what do we owe each other?

That's a huge piece for me. It's like, why are we each other? You know, what do we owe each other? That's a huge piece for me.

It's like, why are we doing this?

You know, what is the problem we seek to solve?

Or what is the value we add to each other's lives?

That's such a beautiful question.

Like, and by the way, it's an invitation

to such an intimate discussion.

Like, these are the things that you make me feel.

Like, these are the things you do that make me feel that way. Like, you make me feel. Like these are the things you do that make me feel that way.

Like you make me feel loved really when.

When you remember that tea that I like

and you make sure that it's here, you know,

or when you, you know,

remember it was my sister's birthday in Center of Text

and then sent me a screenshot.

Like these are this dumb little things

that make us feel so loved and seen.

So why wouldn't we embrace an opportunity

to say to this person, by the way, like,

do you know what I love about you?

Do you know what you do that makes me feel so loved

and makes me feel so in love with you?

Because that's a worthy conversation.

The way you're framing this,

I think is entirely different

than how most people would envision a discussion

about a pre-not.

Which is true.

Which I really appreciate, and I know the audience appreciates too, because you're putting a different lens on things.

I'm going to just put on my hat as a neuroscientist and biologist for a moment.

I think there are certain words that people, for whatever reason, consider kind of a buzz kill. Like we're talking about fair bones and love and children

and romance and sex and vacations and honey moons and parties

and then someone says contract and somebody says,

you know, we finance this, which, you know,

maybe that turns certain people on,

I guess people in the finance world,

probably turns them on, but you get where I'm coming from.

I do, yeah, I have to assume it's a but you get where I'm coming from. I do.

I have to assume it's a different brain circuit.

I think it's what I think it's what I was doing.

You're doing as you're coming at this from a different perspective,

which is part of the reason why you're here.

You're saying this discussion around a pre-nup contract

can potentially shed more light into the nature of the bond,

and maybe even deepen the connection.

Of course, and I will tell you,

I've been doing pre-nubsular agreements

for 25 years for clients.

And I usually end up having a very good relationship

with a person I do a pre-nup with,

because you're talking a lot about their fears,

their host, is it one person or both?

I wanted to ask this.

One at a time.

So each of you has your own lawyer.

Each of you has your own attorney.

You cannot as a lawyer represent both people

because they have what's called potentially adverse

interests.

And what if one person has substantially more income to hire

a better lawyer assuming that more money gets you a better

lawyer after you assume on average it does?

Yeah.

Then the other.

Yeah, it's unfortunate.

It's an unfortunate thing.

I mean, one of the projects I've been involved in in the last couple

of months is a website trustedpreenup.com.

I worked with a couple of tech people

to put together something that's going to democratize pre-nups.

Because up until now, pre-nups have been something

that he's been $5, $10, $15,000 for a traditional lawyer

to draft for you.

And then you're, beyond say, brings it to an attorney to review

and then they want to make revisions.

And it walks into this adversarial process as opposed to sort of democratizing

pre-nups. So what we are trying to do is sort of leverage technological innovation AI.

My hundreds of pre-nups I've drafted, we sort of fed into this to create the ability

for you to go online and to create a pre-nup for like in the realm of $600 or $700.

That would be a game change.

It's really an opportunity, but the purpose of it, as far as I'm concerned, is not just to democratize

pre-nups, which I think we have to do, but to really reframe the way we look at it, because people

come in all the time and they're like, well, I don't know if I need a pre-nup because I'm not wealthy.

And you say, well, you're still going to have a rule set applied to your marriage. And actually,

if you're super wealthy, like most of my clients, they get afford to buy six more houses.

Like, they, you keep the house up by another house down the street and then we'll buy another house

for the kids and then we'll visit with them in that house. Like, that's actually called

nesting. That's a thing. So they're nesting. Nesting is coming up. Nesting men something very

different. Nesting now is when you each have your own home, and then one home is just where the kids live.

And instead of doing a custodial rotation where the kids go back and forth between homes, the kids have a home and the parent who has parenting access during that time is in the nest with the kids.

When I was in college, Nesting was when you got a tablecloth.

Nice. Yes. Yeah, it's a very, it's a very, you know,

the rich divorce in different ways

than the normal general populace.

And so that's why we're trying to say,

look, bring this democratized this,

bring this to bit, let people develop a rule set,

because especially to when you have scarcity,

like most people can't afford to give away

one-half of everything they have

and still have enough to function.

Most people are going paycheck to paycheck.

Most people are a couple of paychecks off from being in bankruptcy if things don't go the right way.

So when they divorce and now we have two electric bills and two internet bills and two,

that's something most people can't do.

So all the more reason for people to have a rule set that the two of them created.

Again, when they were feeling positive and benevolent and optimistic towards each other,

and they were trying to protect you because to me, personally,

I don't know how you can feel loved if you don't feel safe.

Like, I think you have to feel safe, emotionally,

say, physically, safe. Like, if you're afraid of your safe, emotionally, say, physically, safe. Like if you're afraid of your partner,

emotionally, physically, how can you really feel loved?

So to me, the pre-nup is an invitation to A,

can we talk about hard things?

Because I'll tell you right now, when somebody says to me,

why would do a pre-nup?

I know it would be, but that's just gonna be a hard conversation.

Don't get married.

If you can't have hard conversations with a person, you have absolutely

no business marrying them. I mean it's good for me as a future income stream. But I'm

telling you, I don't think it's a good idea. Like you're going to have to talk about hard things.

You know, and you're going to have to have uncomfortable truths instead of comfortable lies

to this person. You know, so I'm a big fan of early on in the process

having those conversations.

And again, it doesn't all have to be like,

the conversation, like when you talk about your will,

that's a hard conversation.

There's no upside to being dead,

than being off social media.

There's no upside to it.

I understand what people are like,

it's really hard to think about like if I die

and if both of us die, what do we do with the kids?

Like that's a hard conversation.

But look, if we break up,

what would you need to feel safe?

Like would you, you know, there's a line from a prince song

if I was your girlfriend,

and it is, would you run to me if somebody hurt you

even if that somebody was me?

And I think there's something really sweet about saying

to someone like, hey, if I hurt you,

like, how can I still have you feel safe?

Like, how can I have you still feel loved?

Like, I don't think that, you know,

when I meet someone and their exes are like,

they just have painted them as a villain,

like with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

And that's frequent. You know, it's frequent to people do that.

And to me that says a lot about the core values of both of these people, I think there's

real value in saying to someone early on, like, hey, if I hurt you, what are you going to

need for me?

What do we need to be made whole?

How can we both feel safe in this relationship?

That's what those discussions are about.

Like throwing the words contracts,

throwing the words economy in their understand.

Like I think you're totally right.

There's something about those words.

But I think reality can be beautiful.

I don't think, like, I don't think you have to see GI

everything for it to be perfect.

I think it's perfect.

I think it's already perfect. I think it's perfect. I think it's already perfect.

There's something very perfect about how imperfect and flawed and frightened we are.

And I think there's something really beautiful about finding someone that you can be that with.

And I don't think I can learn everything I need to know about myself from myself.

Like I think I need someone there.

I'd daily someone who really loves me

and is cheering for me and sees my blind spots.

And I think the conversation about a pre-nups,

that's what that conversation should be.

It's fantastic.

I love the way you lean into life in all its light and shadows

and say, okay, let's accept all of that right off the bat

and figure out what's given

this the highest probability of working.

Well, it's reality.

I've never thought about pre-nups as a way to bolster the probability of the marriage

working.

Well, I'm telling you, and I got sidetracked as I tend to do, but I've done probably

hundreds, if not thousands of pre-nups over 25 years.

I think there may be five people that I did their divorce after they had a pre-nup.

Really?

I think people need to hear that again.

I think that, yeah.

So I've done hundreds if not at least a thousand pre-nups in 25 years.

I probably do two or three pre-nups a week.

So I do a lot of pre-nups.

Most of my colleagues do a lot of pre-nups a week. So I do a lot of pre-nups. Most of my colleagues do a lot of

pre-nups. And I've never asked my colleagues this, but you know usually when you do a pre-nup,

you have a good relationship with the person by the time it's finished. It's a transaction,

people feel good about it. It's a divorce. Sometimes you finish a divorce and the person's like,

oh my god, I never want to see you again because you remind me of this really dark chapter.

But pre-nups, it's usually very friendly transaction, it's positive. This

is surprising to me. So people who pre-nup tend not to break up, yes that wrong. Yes. I think

many people will be very surprised to hear that. I think it's self-selecting. I think the kind

of people who can have a conversation that you need to have in order to discuss and negotiate.

And again, there's another term. I don't think it's the right term to negotiate a pre-empt.

Negotiate against the impressions

like you're buying a car.

The kind of people who can have the conversations

you need to have in order to have a pre-empt

an up-suel agreement,

I think are the kind of people

that are gonna be successfully married.

Period.

Like, there's something about that,

I'm not gonna talk about a pre-empt

because I don't wanna talk about the possibility

that anything could ever go wrong with this thing.

It's perfect, it's wonderful, it's cake, it's roses,

it's nothing but romance and sex and it's wonderful.

Okay, you got no listen.

Falling feels like flying for a little while.

You know?

And then you hit the ground and it is waiting for you.

And if the first time you ever think about

what legal rights and obligations do I have is when you're in my

office, like you're already screwed. You're already screwed. You didn't nothing to prepare

emotionally, financially, you know, nothing. So there's something about the imagination, right?

That people, if you're just the kind of person who's like,

I don't even want to talk.

I actually met, I had a,

they'll remain nameless, but it was a neighbor.

And I tried to, everyone said a while,

I get into my head that I'm going to try to be

a more social person.

So I'm like, oh, I should like,

and bite the neighbor over for a drink, you know?

A couple.

And they don't live near many more,

so I can get away with it now.

But I invited these people over for a drink. When they came over, a couple. And they don't live near many more so I can get away with it. No. But I invited these people over for a drink.

When it came over, lovely people.

But at some point, she said, oh, you know,

I don't know how you do it you do.

Like we don't allow the D word in our house.

And I was like, you mean, she's like, no, no,

we just, you'd not allow to say the word divorce in our house.

And she said it like divorce, like she was saying

bold and word, you know, she was like, we don't say the D word.

And I was like, and I thought of myself,

if only it was that easy, you know,

by the way, we got divorced like three years like really.

Oh yeah, 100% and like they've been asking.

Down, drag out brutal both of them tried to call me

and hire me, you know, and I will not represent people

that I know in any capacity.

And I just remember thinking like that is such a,

what a delusion.

Like that I'm never gonna say the word,

like what are you my great grandmother?

Like you have to say cancer like this.

Because if you say cancer,

like of speaking volumes,

I don't really like tumors will develop.

Like are you that superstitious?

Like do you believe, do you believe in Chubaca too?

Like that's crazy.

I mean, superstition is a form of paranoia.

Yeah.

It's a mild form of paranoia.

Of course.

It is a form of paranoia.

Of course.

Yeah.

But I think it's, you know, I say all the time that I think most of our attitudes

about marriage have been just handed down.

Like it's just, this is something that like marriage.

You could be the most like modern Bella absign feminist person

and a lot of women are like, oh yeah,

I still want my dad to walk me down the aisle

and give me a what?

Did you away, like seriously?

Like you're a seasweet executive

at a software company and he's going to trade you

for what goats, like this is gonna be

where you're not, because you are your father's property

and now you will be the property and he will give you away

to your husband and you'll now be his property.

That's where that tradition comes from, gang.

What do you think the psychological underpinnings

of what you're describing or about?

Is it some sort of internal validation of worth,

external validation of worth?

I mean, none of it computes for me.

When I look at, like you said,

like let's say these are extremities examples, but see sweet female executive. Let's make or a founder also he's exist. I'm sure they are there plenty of them. Yeah. Yeah. And typically, they will take their soon to be husband's last name. Interesting, not always. I'm a percent. That's far more common than men taking their wife's last.

Oh, yeah.

I can't even think of a single,

since I've had a few that hyphenate.

That's a new thing.

Every time I just do that,

you used to be the most scary biologist.

Most of those give the kids the husband's name.

Most give the kids the husband's name.

And again, I don't know if that's a male thing

that like matter like that's my kid.

They're gonna have my name.

I really don't know, but yeah,

there's a lot of the feminism gets thrown out the window.

Another one is that in divorces, I've observed this.

I don't have statistics on this,

but women will keep their ex-husbands last name

because what I was told is they want

to have the same last name as their kid.

That's pretty common.

Which is understandable.

Yeah, I think, of course, it's good switch last year.

It eliminates a certain level of confusion

because it's school like to say,

this is my name at the kids' name.

Yes, it's true.

So that's the key size yet.

Absolutely, yes.

But I also, and by the way, I have clients,

because you don't have to change your name back,

but you have the right to.

And I have male clients who want their name back.

Like I want her to no longer be allowed to use that name.

And I explained to them that's the kind of thing.

You can't force her to not have your name.

You're like, well, that's my name.

And I'm like, you understand, I can change my,

as long as you're not doing it for the intent

of defrauding creditors, anyone can change my name

to Andrew Hewberman tomorrow if I want to.

As long as I'm not doing it to defraud my creditors.

You can't get a lot more problems than it's

the life life.

Be misless human.

It's very fun.

Very fun.

Oh, my goodness.

No, you'd be Andrew Huberman and that comes with a certain number of

lives.

Yeah, that's a exhausting.

I don't think I can handle it.

Full time that I can't do that.

I can't bench that much.

He's full time flying.

No, just kidding.

In all seriousness, wow, people have asked for their name back.

Yeah, they want her prohibited from having a name.

And even though the kids have that name,

but yeah, that's that anger thing.

Like that's just a pure expression of anger.

And I got it.

You know, a lot of what I do is sort of helping people

get to the core of like what are they really upset about?

And that's a lot of what my job is.

Like my undergraduate degree was in psychology.

My master's was in cultural anthropology.

And specifically in the study of death and dying.

And then my law degree, I wanted to be a divorce lawyer

as soon as I started law school.

And I think I used the site degree as much

as I used the law degree, because it's so much of what I do

is just dealing with people when they're in this very heightened

emotional state. Like, I'm a fan of faith, but just not blind faith.

Like, I'm a fan of fairy tales.

If the fairy tales inspire something in you,

that's incredible.

Like if you say to me, you know, Jim,

I love Star Wars.

Like the struggle of the Jedi against the Empire,

like it inspires me to wanna be a disciplined person

and to fight for good and to not be afraid of evil

and to know like that's a beautiful story.

If you try to tell me wookie's real though,

like we got a problem man, you gotta get checked out.

Like that's not okay, that's not true.

So the divorce rates 56%.

So 56% of the time, this technology fails.

56.

56.

Yeah, changes every year, but 56 is the divorce rate currently.

So 56% of marriages end in divorce.

Now, is that true?

Excuse me, in Europe as well.

And South America as well.

And that's true.

Every country, there's statistics are different.

There are, you can be in a race.

The United States does not have,

you can actually look this up online.

There's a great, there's like a running tally that's kept.

But the highest divorce rates are in,

I believe Italy is currently winning that race.

Ireland was at the bottom because it's basically divorce

was not possible in Ireland for an extended period of time.

Countries that have a very strong underlying religious narrative,

like Sharia Law and things like that, obviously have a very strong underlying religious narrative, like Sharia Law and things like that.

Obviously have a very low divorce rate.

But it varies in terms of, but countries that are,

I don't want to say, like very modern,

where there's been a proliferation of social media,

where there is open information environment,

so people can compare themselves to other people

constantly.

Not North Korea.

Not North Korea.

Great example.

Yes.

That there is a sense of, because I've actually even North Korea like has an underlying religious

narrative.

It's just that they've decided that they've been told their leader is a God.

So I think when you don't have a core foundational religious narrative that prohibits

divorce as part of its structure, then you're left to people's desires to some degree and the

cultural foundations of it in tradition, right? And tradition for many many years tradition was

you stay married even if you're unhappy. And then tradition in the 1970s and 1980s started turning into your happiness is more important than the institution of marriage. So if you're unhappy you might need to leave your marriage and get divorced. And that's when the divorce rates started the spike, right? So and I think there's some value to that. Like I, you know, tradition is in some ways, like the wisdom of the people before us and they saw things we might not see.

And to some degree tradition is peer pressure exerted by dead people.

So I think our fascination with marriage as this, I found my soul made and now we're not even going to think about the possibility of us ending,

even though fully 56% of the time the thing's going to end.

Like that's the part I can't wrap my head around is, and again, look at the numbers there.

Like let's assume conservatively that another 10% stay together for the kids.

Because the 56 is just the ones who actually said this this is so bad we're getting lawyers and we're ending this thing.

Like how many people stay together for the kids

or religious reasons

or because they don't want to give away half their shit?

Like that's got to be a big number.

I mean, conservative 10%,

I think it's more than 20%.

Yeah, definitely more.

And these are first marriages.

First marriages, the statistics for each subsequent marriage,

the divorce rich gets much higher.

So by the time really, second marriages higher than first marriage divorce rate gets much higher. So like by the time, really. Second marriage is higher than first marriage,

third marriage is much higher.

And then once you get past three,

it's like, you're all the divorced people

and my family remarried

and have been in those second marriages

very long periods.

I know a lot of very happy

and get together very happy.

Yes, because I think there's value to that

because I do think as a divorced person,

you learn a lot about yourself,

through the process of divorce,

you learn a lot about what you don't want to do

again in a relationship and what didn't work for you.

So I don't do anything perfectly the first time I do it.

So I think that there's value in sort of giving something

a try.

Like you don't learn how to swim by reading books about swimming.

You learn how to swim in the pool.

So that's why I'm a fan of marriage,

even though the divorce rate is very high,

it's clearly a very risky technology.

One could argue it's a reckless thing to do.

You know, the legal definition of negligence

is a failure to perceive the substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm.

Recklessness legally is a conscious disregard for a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm.

So if you know something ends in heartbreak and division of assets and fighting that requires attorneys, 56% of the time.

And you don't make any plan for that in advance. I would argue that's reckless.

You're consciously disregarding a substantial risk of harm. Period.

And if there's kids, it brings that different kind of time to the uneven higher level.

Yeah. Do you happen to know the numbers or the rough numbers

on percentage of first marriages with kids that last?

What are their happier?

I don't.

I don't know that delineation.

I mean, I know that these statistics are fairly closely

tracked, so you can find them out online pretty easily

because they're tracked by the government.

Every time we do a divorce, we have to file what's called the certificate of the solution of marriage, and that certificate

includes the grade level, the highest grade level each person completed, whether there are children,

how many children, the ages of the children, and the whole purpose of that document is to compile

demographic information. So the government for many, many years

has been monitoring this and looking at,

okay, what are those numbers?

Those numbers are not well publicized.

I think partly because the wedding industrial complex

does not want people getting involved in that conversation,

like you don't want people to really look at the truth of things

because it takes away from the fantasy of things.

But see, again, I think that's a framing issue because to me,

I think the stars are still beautiful even if you know astronomy.

Like, I think if anything, I actually think,

and maybe this is just the way that I look at things,

the fact that love is loaned and not permanently gifted makes it more beautiful.

Like the fact that I'm going to die for sure makes my life more beautiful.

There's a finite number of sunsets I'm going to see.

There's a number.

I don't know it yet.

It might be five, it might be five hundred.

But there's a number, right?

And so when you're with someone,

that marriage is gonna end.

Every marriage ends.

It ends in death or in divorce.

It's one of the only things in the world

that you go, I hope the sentence in death.

Like if you said to someone at their wedding,

like man, I really hope your marriage ends in death,

they would be like, what is wrong with that guy?

But it's a truth, because all marriages end,

and in death or divorce, I hope the yours ends in death. But I don't think that makes it less beautiful. It makes it more

beautiful that every day this person wakes up and decides to continue to be your spouse and to

continue to be your partner and ideally your cheerleader and your fan, you know, and to me,

the fact that you don't own this person, that they have free will,

they have autonomy and agency, and they choose you, not just on one day where you put

on nice clothes and played good music and everybody got drunk, which is there's value

in that and the memory of that and the photos of that and a reminder.

But like the fact that they every day get up and continue to choose to be with you, like that.

And if you said to me that the reason why they stay with you is they don't want to get divorced.

Like that's a terrible reason.

I was a smoker many, many years ago.

People used to say like, oh, you got to quit smoking.

It's going to take 10 years off your life.

I'm like, right, like the last 10,

like the adult diaper wearing years.

I don't want them anyway.

Like you've met a 90 year old, like I don't want to be 90.

It's fine.

You take it off the tail.

Once I made the connection between,

I feel better.

I taste food better.

I can run further and faster.

Then it made sense to me.

Because now there's something real intangible in the present. There's something that has value.

So it's the same, I think it's the same thing with marriage.

It's the same thing with pre-nups,

which is let's not talk about what is this going to give us on the back end.

Or what are we going to lose if we don't have this on the back end?

Let's talk about what can this do for us in the present?

What can this conversation do for us in the present

about understanding what we mean to each other and what we owe to each other?

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I'm beginning to adopt a mindset around contracts

that they are a tool to embrace reality.

Both potential negatives, but also to enrich the positives.

And imagination, I think imagination too.

I think that

marriage is about an imagined future. Like it's about we're going to build this thing.

What's it look like?

Like when you and your business partners sat down together,

you had an imagination together.

Like you weren't just like, OK, what are we going to do today?

What are we building?

What do we want it to be?

And by the way, it never ends up being what you thought it'd be.

It turns into something completely different.

There was no premonition.

I mean, that's not very different scenario, but I don't think it's really even that different.

I think that, you know, if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

Like, I think the best thing is this vague idea of like, what do we want to do?

I don't know, something.

I want to do something exciting together.

I don't know what exactly what's going to look like.

I think this is the loose structure, but I don't know exactly what it is gonna look like. I think this is the loose structure,

but I don't know exactly what it is.

Like, you know, you and I are friends.

Like, we didn't talk about what we're gonna talk about today.

You know, we talked a dozen times,

but we didn't go, oh, say so.

What should we talk about?

Why?

Because I think if we did, it wouldn't be authentic.

Like, there's something so much better about,

like, yeah, we wanna have a good conversation,

something of value, something we'll both enjoy,

and then maybe the people watching we'd enjoy.

So that's so much better.

And I think that's what you're doing with a pre-nup

or with a marriage is you're imagining a future together.

Okay, what does it look like?

Tell me, so it's not just about the rule-outs.

Like I think about certain guidelines.

Like in the octagon, it's, you know,

no growing shots, you know, no thumbing eyes.

So there's all that this is not going to happen type stuff.

And the reason for each of those, no matter what x, y and z are off the table,

that makes people feel safe, right?

Because you want to know that certain

very dangerous things are off the table, right?

But what you're talking about are a number of

opt-ins through contracts and pre-nups.

Sure.

And it's also all over to markers.

Like markers of, look, you spend so much time.

One of the reasons I consume so much of what you put out there is,

I like to know the markers before I have the problem.

Like I like to know, like, what are the things?

What are the, you know, measure what matters, right?

Like I want to look at what has changed and then what can I do to adjust at that point?

And I think relationships is the same thing.

Like by the time you're in my office, it's too late.

Like it is so much harder to take a broken relationship and try to make it good again.

Then it is to take a good relationship and keep it good

and keep it strong.

Like it's so much harder to get you gain a bunch of weight

and then try to lose all of it.

Then it is to maintain a healthy body mass.

Like it's just easier.

So I think the same concept applies,

which is be honest with yourself

about what it is we're moving towards

and what it is we're building

and how do we stay

at this place? I don't like to just have it's not just about the opt-outs. Like okay if we're

split up we're not gonna have to hire lawyers and we're not gonna have to go through the court system

we're gonna know what the rules are. There's value to that. But there's also tremendous value

to the conversation about what are we, oh, each other, what are we bringing to this relate?

Cause that's where the economy piece of it comes in,

which is, you know,

and this is the part where it's so laden with gender stuff

and it's laden that,

but no one wants to talk about it

or it doesn't feel safe to talk about,

or to talk about it honestly.

Hence, 56%.

Yeah, I think so.

I think we are poorer for that dishonesty.

Because I think I understand, it's an uncomfortable truth.

I understand that it's difficult to say,

like, yeah, I don't know there's something in me

that wants this way.

Like, I don't know what it is.

I don't know if it's biology.

I don't know if it's hormones.

I don't know what, like, this is important to me.

Like, yeah, I wanna have a feeling sexual relationship

with you, but we want different things, actually.

Like, I want frequency.

You want intensity.

You want intensity.

Like whatever it might be.

The male sex tribe, the female sex tribe, they're not the same.

Or, Mona Lee, they're not the same.

So is it okay to have a conversation about, hey, if we're marrying each other, we have

a sexual relationship usually.

And so where it's at right now is good, I'd imagine.

So how do we know when we're slipping off baseline?

And how do we know where, and by the way, how do we know when we slip off baseline?

It's not a sign of disaster, right?

Like if I'm eight years old in my eyesight starts to get really bad,

it's probably more alarming than if I'm 52 and now I need reading glasses.

Like these are more normal things, right?

So why not say like, hey, I'm not saying the amount of sex we're having when we're dating

or engaged is the baseline.

And if we ever slip off of that, it means that the relationships in trouble.

That's an insane statement.

So do pre-nups include discussions or agreements

about sex money?

They can.

Or money for sure, sex they can.

And I think the overall conversation

that should surround prenups.

And the reason why I think people who get prenups

in my observation are less likely to get divorced

is at the front of this thing.

You are having conversations about what do we owe it

to each other, what do we expect from each other?

What is meaningful to us about the each other?

What value do you bring to my life?

Like, why can we do that in any other relationship?

Like if right now, you as my friend,

someone said, why do you like Andrew,

you remain as a friend? I could run off a list of things. You super interesting, you

super interested. He knows a lot of cool workout stuff. He's a lot of fun

hang out with. He eats the same way that I do, like kind of boring. He doesn't

drink just like me so we can hang out. I don't feel weird because I'm not

drinking because he's not either like, there's a whole list of stuff I could say.

I say the exact same things about you. There you go. I don't know much of stuff. I

don't know anything. But you know, we're interested of stuff I could say. I'd say they exact same things about you. There you go. I don't know.

I don't know anything.

But you know, we're interested.

We're interesting.

Our friendship makes sense, right?

So why?

And by the way, isn't it lovely to hear what someone likes about you?

Like, I think it's one of the nicest things of the world.

When somebody says, no, I like about you, Jim.

I'm all ears.

Tell me, you know?

Or if someone who I love and trust and know, like,

I know you're my friend. So if you called me and you said, you know, or if someone who I love and trust and know, like I know you're my friend.

So if you called me and you said, you know, Jim,

can I give you some constructive feedback?

Like something I think you're doing that's getting in your own way.

Dude, I would be all ears.

I would be all ears.

I would wanna hear that.

I made that call.

You made that call to me a couple of times.

Yeah, it's turning client privilege.

I can't bring it up.

But yeah, I mean, I think there's something

that's an event in a couple's life, right?

So why and this romantic context,

would you wonder the opportunity to have that conversation?

Here's what you bring into my life.

Here's how you make me feel.

Here's when I feel the most loved.

Here's when I feel not as loved by you.

I think it's because when people hear the word pre-nup,

they're thinking ending.

It's about the ending.

It's the contract that is going to divide the resources.

So we don't have to give certain amounts to the lawyers.

Everyone's going to feel safe.

You don't have to worry that you're going to end up with whatever less than or more of this value to that.

But I don't think I could be wrong.

But I don't think most people associate the word

Preenup with anything about the success of the marriage, which is probably why so few people get them is there any idea

Roughly what percentage no because what's amazing about a pre-nup is a pre-nup is not filed anywhere

It's just you have one in your safe the lawyer has one in their safe. It's a contract and is it as binding as anything else?

Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, just we know nowadays things like NDAs are kind of fluid the lawyer has one and they're safe. It's a contract. And is it as binding as anything else? Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Just we know nowadays things like NDAs are kind of fluid.

No, NDAs are fluid because NDAs are a relatively new construct.

And they haven't really been tested.

Just like non-competes, there was a period of time.

We're non-competes.

We're like they were overly broad and they weren't worth the paper.

They were printed on and then people tried to tailor them.

And now, non-competes that are specific as to geography and duration, like the, you know, the court system, the living law, figures out, okay, here's

how we have to tweak it. Prenaps the same thing happened. There was a lot of prenaps back

in the day used to get tossed out. But for the 25 years I've been practicing, trust me,

I've had a couple of prenaps I've tried to set aside. And I've been unsuccessful and

I'm a good lawyer. But it's very hard to set aside a properly drafted pre-nup,

you know, and I think that that's a good thing

because again, the framing needs to change,

which is everyone has a pre-nup.

It's either written by the government

and subject to change by the government without notice to you

and then you can't opt out of the new rule set

or it's one that you and your partner draft together.

I want to return to pre-nups and unfortunately to divorce, but I'd like to talk about love and

the contracts, both emotional and practical around love a bit more.

Sure.

Do you think people are completely honest with themselves and with the other person when

they decide to get married or simply to become, quote

unquote, life partners or to just become partners. I mean, do you think that part of the,

the allure of the dopamine oxytocin, fair-moon, social crowd, cloud, excuse me, and all

that goes with it? I mean, what's more fun than leaving the bedroom with

someone near your totally crazy about shouring up and heading out and going to see friends

and you're happy, they're happy, I think going back home again, repeat. They're very few things

that are as from the other side of the fence to to see a couple that's really happy

and in love.

You don't need to know or care about what they do in private.

You can feel how much they adore one.

You feel the vibe off of them.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a fair amount of effect of that.

I mean, there's really serious primate biology that supports all of that that we don't even

have to discuss.

We can just kind of like put that one on the shelf and everyone knows what we're talking